Tony Alamo News

Deposition of Kathy and Don Wiley

TONY AND SUSAN ALAMO RELIGIOUS FOUNDATION TAPE #2 TRANSCRIPTIONS
08/21/80

GA = Glenn Adams
Don = Don Wiley
Kathy = Kathy Wiley

GA — “Now, were you officers in the Foundation?”

DON — “There’s no such thing as an officer or chain of command or hierarchy. It’s all Tony and Susan. Oh, there is an innercircle that is given the — to which authority is delegated so to speak. But, in the final analysis, any decision that is made, they make. ”

GA — “Everything is done by Tony and Susan?”

KATHY—“Yes.”

GA—”What is your knowledge of their finances? How they make their money and what they do with it.”

DON—”Well, the years that I was there, from the year 1970-August until 1978, the bulk of their working capital came out of the labor and the fields in California. They had, sometime, 200 people, at the most, 250 people, working in the fields 12 to 14 hours a day. Doing piece work.”

GA—”Working for other people?”

DON—”Yeah. Working for the farmers out there in the valley. Making quite a bit of money, I remember taking deposits in, in cash, in a briefcase, of $45,000.”

KATHY—”A week.”

DON—”Well, $45,000 on Monday after it had accumulated for two days over the weekend.”

GA—”And, this was all turned over to Tony?”

DON—”Yes, and he checks if anyone that does piecework job is given a check from a company it’s just endorsed over to them.”

KATHY—”Yeah. You don’t even cash it yourself, you just endorse it over. And, a lot times its not unusual for you not to even to look at your check, you don’t even know what your check’s worth.”

DON—”Yeah. The bus would pull up and people would get off the buses with their checks and hand them to one person. That one person would drive from Bakersfield to Los Angeles and at night, and would stamp “For Deposit Only” and take ’em down to the bank.”

GA—”OK. Did most of the money get in the bank?”

DON—”Yeah.”

KATHY—”Yeah. Tony did deposit all of them. Except what they spent. You know, like in a______(???) . Since we live in Arkansas. What they been there? 5 years? Yeah. Since Soupy was born and she’s five. 5 years. They would—if they wanted to go shopping, or do anything, they would just—they had a drawer in their kitchen that they would keep what they called ‘the drops’ and all the businesses—certain brothers were assigned to be able to pickup the ‘drops’ of all the businesses every 12 hours it was. And, they’d pickup the drops and bring ’em to Tony’s house, and usually I was there, ’cause I was with Susan practically 24 hours a day for the last 12 years. And, I would just put ’em in the drawer in the kitchen. And, it would usually run up to $30,000 or $40,000 and they would go drop-take it in the bank. But, they if Tony of Sue either one needed any money to go shopping, they’d just take out what ever they wanted. ”

DON–“But, again the bulk of the working capital — those drops in Arkansas was just the local businesses, you know, gas stations. Their big turnover businesses, their grocery stores, I guess you know about all their businesses. But still the bulk of it came from the fields.”

KATHY — “Not from the field. No. Not the last — we’ve been gone 2 years — I would say the last 4 years before we left, there wasn’t hardly anybody in the field. As a matter of fact, when we left, there’s only about 20 people in Bakersfield. By then, the boys in the foundation was doing carpentry, they had outside jobs and a lot of then were making $13 to $14, you know, good money- But, by then, they had worked their way up to pretty skilled jobs and then the girls — most the girls worked — they had their own sewing room. They’d make outfits for the Alamo store in Nashville and all the girls, if they don’t work in the restaurant, they work in there.”

DON— “16 hours a day.”

KATHY — “Well, you know a lot of times 18 or 19. You never had a day off.”

GA— “Get nothing for it?”

KATHY— “No. Well, room and board.”

GA — “How were the accommodations?”

KATHY— “Terrible.”

DON — “Miserable. They were in fact, were quanset huts with raw sewage under the foundations

GA— “What about the food?”
DON — “The food was just starch or garbage. In California, it was what we got out of the garbage cans at the local grocery stores. In Arkansas, we couldn’t do what we called “pickups” (???) _ in back of the grocery stores. It was just mostly noodles and beans and stuff, starches.”

GA — “Did any people eat in the restaurant there?”

DON — “Well, we ate in the back of the restaurant, but not chicken or steak or anything like that.”

KATHY — “They had a regular — we had, everyday of the week, we had the same thing for five years. As a matter of fact, for dinner we nearly always had chicken and dumplings ’cause they would serve chicken and dumplings (in the restaurant) and they would pull them at a certain time. And, that’s what they served to us. So, till this day I can’t eat chicken and dumplings. But, they had a regular menu, like Mondays it would be macaroni and cheese, it was mostly all starch. Actually, when we were in California they lived on a — they did, literally got their food from pickups. And, they deny it but, its true. But, we ate a lot better in California than we did in Arkansas. There was no comparison. At least in California, there was all kinds of dairy products. Usually, there — through the stores, when they would get a day old on the label, they’d give it to us. See, a lot of times, dairy products are good 2, 3 days after that. And, so, you always had access to that, where as in Arkansas it was much worse.”

GA — “The cost of maintaining the membership was minimal?”

DON — “It was very well organized.”

KATHY— “They had no overhead.”

DON — “They don’t pay any of the help in the gas stations or the concrete company. There was a point every once in awhile, Tony would feel guilty, I guess and he would give us $5 a week. It varied from $5 to $10 a week for expenses.”

KATHY — “A few times a month. But, out of that $5 and $10, you had to buy all your clothes. See, there’s no such thing like they say, where they provide all your clothes and that. They have what they call the — everything is so controlled there.”

DON — Every night a needs list is presented to Tony, this long , you know, of what people need in the way of toiletries and all.”

KATHY — “And, it has to be approved. And, he says yes or no. The men have that, the women never had that. Susie’s much harder on the women. Tony lets the boys get by with more than, you know, let’s say the girls. But, you just never have any pocket money. So, as far as leaving or anything, you really don’t even have money to get a bus.”

GA — “No way to get away.”

DON — “The ones that have left, are the ones that had the where-with—all,”

KATHY — “And, you’ve burned every bridge behind you because they discourage any relations with friends or parents, so you’ve burned all your bridges behind you. So you really don’t have any place to go to if you did decide to leave.”

RG — “You must be totally dependent on them?”

KATHY — “And, you know, you really believe the world is evil. That if you leave there, the combination of God will come upon you and destroy you. And, so out of fear — it’s a fear thing. ”

GA — “So, it’s not a fear of him though. It’s a fear of the outside world?”

KATHY — “Of the world.” They turn it that way, but it really is a fear of Tony and Susan.”

DON — “Tony and Susan play yo-yo with everybody’s emotions. It’s unbelieveable. Call ’em up and embarrass them in front of hundreds. You know, they still got 500 or 600 people there, I guess, maybe less. He’ll call you up in front of ’em and just chew you out and tell ’em you’re the scumb of the Earth and that you’re sinning before God and that you’re causing Satan getting into the Foundation because of your antics.

KATHY — “They take the scriptures and quote ’em and turn them for their benefit. Of course, you don’t know that when you’re in there because mostly the kids don’t know anything about the gospel or anything like that.”

GA—”Just what you learned there?”

KATHY—”Just what you learned there. Since we’ve left, I thank God that we’ve gotten with this ____(???_). Boy, there’s sure a lot of things we sure don’t agree with. But, at least its set our heads straight, that God’s not going to come down and consume you because you happen to make a little bit left and He wants you to go right. But, you know you live in mortal fear. The whole family separates, I mean, you don’t see your children, your children go in a nursery school, someone else takes care of them from morning till night. And, if you’re one of the more responsible people, you don’t have any family life. It’s discouraged. See, the whole thing is set up where you depend on Tony and Sue for everything, for their thinking, for your livelihood, you don’t trust your husband or wife. If your husband—”

DON—”they arrange the marriages (???)”

KATHY—”Yeah. And, if he were to do anything, I would go report him to the pastor and the pastor would—see there’s no trust — all trust is torn down between any couples or anything there.”

GA—”What form of punishment did they mete out.”

DON—”No corporal. Just emotional.”

KATHY—”You know, like they would make you wash dishes for a couple of months. No one could talk to you. They would tell ’em that you were a stumbling block to the gospel. Which is worse, mental.”

DON—”You’re the cause of Susie’s cancer. That was a standard line. I didn’t go along with a lot of it. Most of ’em do,”

GA—”Are they sincere at all with any of their religious teaching?”

KATHY—”You mean the kids?”

GA—”No, Tony and Susan.”

KATHY-” I don’t think so. Now, that I’m out, I don’t. Then I did.”

DON—”_____(??) had a hard time resolving that one. I, for awhile, thought that maybe there was a point in Tony’s life. I don’t know about Susie. Susie’s just plain malicious from the word go. But, I think maybe there was a point in Tony’s life.”

KATHY—”I think out of their own ego, they might think they’re doing right, you know. But, maybe Tony, ‘Cause, you see, Tony is a product of Susie. When he met Susie, Susie was already on her way to what she was going to do. Tony was a young Christian, just gotten saved. He didn’t know anything about the gospel. So, really, everything—the way he believes the scriptures, is what she’s taught him. So, he’s really no different than most of us. It’s just that he’s more intense, because he happens to be one of the leaders too. But, I don’t think on her—. Cause everything that she told us, now that we’ve left, we’ve found is a lie. Her whole background, she told us, you know, she was this and she was that, and now that we’ve left, we’ve found out, there’s nothing further from the truth. And see, when you’re in there and you’re told all these things. That God worked miracles through her and that she was called super naturally, you believe it. But, since we’ve left, we’ve found it not so.”

DON-“And, if the people in that organization could see these depositions they gave a few weeks ago, there’d be an exodus They’d see once and for all that — ”

KATHY— “But, see we tried to write ’em letters. We’ve tried to communicate with them and they never get our letters. We’ve been told by the different people that have left there, that there have been house meetings, that if anybody accepts a letter from us, they get in a lot of trouble. And, they’ve had prayer meetings for God to destroy us, you know. Stuff like that. So, most of the people in there think we’re de-programmers.”

GA — “Do you have any fear of them? They are dangerous?”

DON— “Yeah.”

KATHY — “There’d be a lot of them. There’s a lot of violence there.”

GA — “Is it current or are they vindictive. Would they go after you now?”

DON — “The way Susie operates, is she doesn’t give the go ahead. You know, she doesn’t say go and do such and so. She’ll say, for example, this is a hypothetical, she’ll say well this should be done and somebody will go out and beat somebody up.”

KATHY— “Or, ‘If I were you, this is what I would do.’ ”

DON — “Right, if I were you, and that sort of thing. ‘Course legally she knows what to do and what not to do.”

GA— “Yeah. She’s covering herself there..”

KATHY — “They’ve got like a nucules, they call ‘The beef’. It’s about 25 guys, real strong guys, most of ’em are ex-street people, you know from New York and gangs and stuff, that they’ll call in whenever there’s any kind of trouble. And they get chains, clubs, stuff like that. They beat up several people.”

DON — “There were instructions last time there was a deprogramming attempt in Fort Smith. They were gonna beat up the Judge and the marshals, the — ”

KATHY — “Oh, yeah. The police, a pregnant lawyer. See the thing is that’s why when we saw “Jones Town” it scared us so badly that — because we realized from being in there that’s there’s so much violence there that has been pent up that all it would take is a spark and the ‘go’ from Susie and there’d be murders committed, I believe, a lot of violence. But the only reason that’s it’s held in check is because Susie has held it in check. But she’s got enough power over those people and it’s pent up for so long because there’s no love there. Most of it is just geared toward hate. You know, if anybody comes with — that’s not involved with the Foundation and does not agree with it 100%, they go after ’em.

DON— “I’ve seen (????) _ form a circle and beat ’em.”

GA — “Now, is this somebody internally?”

DON— -“No.”

KATHY — “This is an outsider that didn’t like the Foundation.”

DON — “But, there’s never been anybody inside. No. There’s no promiscuity. The people themselves — it’s really hard to see how this could be — but, the people themselves are sincere. I don’t doubt the Christianity of any of them in there. Their intentions anyway. It’s just the leadership. It’s just like Jones Town.”

GA — “The people originally come from what background? All backgrounds?”

DON — “Pretty good cross section although a lot of them are street dopers form the 60’s.”

KATHY — “Well, no. ‘Cause I got to know a lot — most of ’em like Susie leads everybody to believe that everybody there was on dope.”

DON— “Yeah. That’s over played.”

KATHY — “I’d say out of 60 girls there, there were maybe 3 that was heavy into dope. Rest of ’em maybe smoked pot once in their life. Maybe tried it in high school or something like that. But, there is a big cross section. Most of them come from Christian homes. ”

GA — “Where do the people come from?”

DON — “They’ve stopped taking them in. But, for the first 5 years of their existence, from ’69 through ’75, they were in the streets passing out little pieces of gospel literature. ”

GA — “Are these people that are down and out that they’re picking up?”

DON— “Yeah. ——— (???) .”

KATHY — “Yeah. Most of them are runaways.”

GA — “So they’re enticed with care and room and board and so forth?”

KATHY — “And the first impression you get is a family unit. And that was during the love and peace movement. Those days when everybody thought go to Hollywood and you’ll find your dream and all that type of stuff. So, the streets were just thick with kids.”

DON — “They’ve stopped that. They don’t take anybody —- .”

GA— “It’s a closed society?”

KATHY — “Oh, yeah. About 5 years ago, they don’t even witness anymore, at all. Because they said they had to separate them. So, they’re completely separate now. Even the town they live in, they don’t even have anything to do with them, right (to DON)?

DON – “They have open services. They call them open services, but the kids, they don’t fellowship or talk to any of the people, other than a little(???) ”
GA — “Do any outsiders come to their fellowship?”

KATHY – “A few.”

DON – “Maybe five on a Sunday. They built that building that will seat 1,500 and there’s about 150 people of their own that come to the services, and maybe 5 of the people in town. But the people in town think they’re dangerous. They know good and well they’re dangerous.”

KATHY – “Well, what happened was, the people in town were really nice when we first moved there in Dyer. And, some of the parents that were trying to get conservership on their children, to see ’em.. ‘Cause see, most of those kids in there have not seen their parents in 10 years. They’re not allowed to see their parents. And, Susie never comes out and says. ‘I don’t want you to see your Mother or Father.’ She comes out and says that the Bible says, ‘ That any man that puts mother or father before me, is not worthy of me.’ It’s the same thing when you have a child, you put ’em in a nursery, and if you complain about not being able to bring her up, God says — I mean Susie tells you, ‘God will take her life, because you’re putting her before the Lord.’ So, you figure, well a little of her is better than nothing. So, you don’t murmur or complain, you just — like a zombie — do because you really believe that you are doing what God expects of you. But, the parents, like since we’ve been out, will call us and they’ll say ‘we haven’t seen my son in 10 years. Has he grown? Is he married, what does he look like?’ It’s been frantic.”

DON—”We get six phone calls a weekend, as a rule.”

KATHY — “It finally got to the point that it disturbed us so bad, that we just took our phone off the hook because they would call us and beg and cry to do something. That’s the whole reason we doing this law suit. I would’ve liked to just walked away from there and forgotten it—that whole thing. But, for the sake of the parents, you know, they’ve tried everything, conserverships, and they’ve tried deprogramming. I’d say half of the kids there had– no relationship with their parents before they came. But, the other half — I mean it’s like a vindictive thing with Susie — she has to have your total allegiance. And, that means turn your back on everything, you know. So, anyway, a couple of these parents came to Dyer and they happened to go over to this general store in the town, Dyer has only about three hundred people, and get a soda. And, Frankie the owner, was -cordial to them and talked to them and Susie got mad because she wanted Frankie to throw them out. Frankie says. ‘I can’t do that. That’s not my business what’s going on.’ So, the next thing you knew, boy, Susie was doing pickets and everything and tried to turn the whole town against Frankie. It backfired on her, the whole town turned against the Foundation. So now, they (the town) wants the Foundation out of there. We just heard they just got accredited; they’ve got their own school now. I don’t know how they could have done that they ???) somebody.”

DON— “There was only 3 people that had degrees.”

KATHY— “Two. Only two.”

DON — “And, I was one of the few that had any college. There were about 4 of us total that has any college.”

KATHY-“See. That’s what I don’t understand. How are they getting away with what they’re—

DON — “They’d had the IRS go through everything; you know, around ’72, ’71 in California. I personally took boxes full of receipts down there. And, things were misrepresented.”

KATHY — “Now, Richard was the one that misrepresented. The one that, the one that’s (???) and the one that’s in New York. He’s the whole one that put the screws in that. He was the go between, between Tony and the IRS. He said he testified. But, he lied and everything to the IRS. That was the whole reason that case was closed and — because they said they couldn’t read the books — -the way the books were kept. They couldn’t make heads or tails out of them.”

GA — “Well does he (Richard) keep the “books?”

DON — “Well there were a number of people.”

KATHY — “Well he knows all the inside because Tony would call him on the phone and tell— instruct Richard what to tell the IRS. And because Richard was in California at the time, and Tony was in Arkansas. Because Tony never confronted the IRS face to face, Richard was the — ”

DON — “So, when the IRS would call in the course of this investigation to ask any kind of questions, they’d hang up, call Tony — for example, I remember Richard said to Tony ‘They want to know how many suits you have’ — Tony has multiplied thousand of $$ worth of $100 shirts and all of that from the Alma store. It’s unbelievable…has in the way of clothing. He (Tony) said tell them, ‘I have two suits.'”

KATHY — “They spend money like you wouldn’t believe.”

DON — “You have no idea. She’d go down and spend $400 on eyelashes for Susie.”

KATHY — “It was nothing to go out on a spending spree with Susie and spend $20,000.”

GA — “Now, this was all cash, right?”

KATHY-“Yes. Everything was always cash.”

DON — “And, throw the receipts away.”

KATHY — “And, see in the Foundation whenever we’d buy anything, we had to keep the receipts. ‘Cause they were all turned in. Now, for Tony and Sue they’d made me throw them away. I’d ask Sue, ‘well what should I do,’ I didn’t know human flesh could go through so much money. I guess you can. But, they — it was just like nothing was beyond her. If she saw anything, she didn’t even ask the price, she just bought it.”

GA — “Are they accumulating for themselves other than consumables? Like gold —

DON-“No.”

KATHY—”Well, Tony is buying gold. Terry Pharr is the one. We found out about it because Ed—.” ”

GA—”Terry Pharr?”

KATHY—”Yeah. He’s in California.”

DON—”He’s in the organization though. He won’t talk to you.”

KATHY—”Yeah. He’s still in the organization. I wish there was someway we could check that record. He’s the one who used to buy it for Tony.”
I”2—”We think he’s the one who bought it.”

KATHY–“That’s what Ed said. Terry Pharr’s the only one in California Tony could trust at the time. And I think Tony sent Ed a couple of times. I’m sure.”

DON—”I know when I was working the Nashville store, a heavy box came in and Ed told me it was gold.” His briefcase weighed what??—she’d pick it up and—-.”

KATHY—”See, I used to do all their packing. I would do everything for them. And, then the last couple of years before we left, Tony got real scitzo about his brief case—if I even picked it up, he’d flip. I couldn’t even pick it up it was so heavy. So I don’t know what it was. And, I didn’t know about the gold.”

GA—”He carried this around with him?”

KATHY –“Yeah.”

DON—”He always carries a rifle and-pistol in the trunk.”

KATHY—”He’s very paranoid. He has a (??) . He not supposed to carry a gun. He carries a gun in his boot.”

DON—”Yeah. He’s a convicted felon.”

KATHY—”You know.”

DON—”I’ve bought guns for him. He’s got a collection.”

KATHY—”I’m sure that they-Tony and Sue- know that we’d probably tell that. So, I’m sure that maybe they’d paint their act. Maybe now they’ve gotten kinda lenient. But, I used to clean up their house and underneath their bed they had an automatic sib-machine, rifles”

DON — “It was fully automatic. But they never went to the (???) with it.”

KATHY — “I was always afraid if I hit my toe a gun was going to go off and shoot me in the foot or something. They had guns all over. He was a gun manic.”

DON — “Tony would – in great delight, with glee in his eyes- would talk about how he would love to be able to come up in the sunroof of his Cadillac with that automatic and be able to take care of his enemies.”

KATHY — “He’s crazy. They all are. They’re real ego maniacs. That’s what scares us about them.”

DON — “It’s a Jim Jones thing all over again. People don’t understand that. She and I are only a few of the people in this country that do.”

GA — “Back to the gold, you don’t know where he would’ve bought this?”

KATHY-“L.A.”

DON-“He might have said something about Africa. I don’t know. It must have been—“

KATHY—”Tony would not have bought it in Arkansas. They wouldn’t do anything like that in that area.” ‘Cause they knew the people would find out.”

DON—”Well, it was Tennessee (???)

GA—”Well, -where do you buy gold. I’ve never had the occassion ____(???)____ .

KATHY—”You can buy it from a broker or anything. You know, just go down Kugrands.”

RG—”Do you know where they keep it now? Do they store it at the house somewhere?”

KATHY—”Tony doesn’t trust banks. The only thing I think, and we talked to a couple of the boys about it, and they said they probably was no doubt in their mind that Tony doesn’t have an account somewhere.”

DON—” Overseas.”

KATHY—”But, see it’s very easy to filter money out of the country.”

DON—” (???) . But, that’s conjecture. ‘Cause I took care of things and I know they never had an account in their own name.”
KATHY—”But, yet at the same time they’re so distrustful of everybody. I don’t know if they trust anybody. They would be more willing to keep their money on them. And, the only that the briefcase thing was so strange was because I’d always packed it for Tony before. Whenever him and Susie traveled before, he’d put his toiletries in there and I’d do the packing and then all of a sudden he got to where if I picked it up, he’d just scream at me. He just go berserk, ‘Get away from that briefcase, don’t touch it.’ It was too heavy that I couldn’t pick it up. At the time. I didn’t know he was buying gold so I didn’t put two and two together.”

GA—”Where do they live. Actually live themselves?”

DON—”More often that not, at least while we were there, in Dyer.” In that big yellow house in Dyer. Have you seen the operation there?”

GA—”They got a big house or what?”

DON—”The one—Of their four homes, the one is Dyer is the most modest. It’s probably only 3,000 feet or so.”

KATHY—”Where they’d hide the gold would be in Nashville house.” GA—”The Nashville house?”-

KATHY—”There’s a secret compartment, let’s see I’m trying to remember, is it under the rug in the office?”

DON—”Yeah. They have some kind of safe in there. That’s right, we talked about that.”

KATHY—”It’s built in, because the guy that owned the house, Jerry Goff, Goff the Gospel singer, with a gospel group.”

DON—”He’d knew right where that safe is.”

KATHY— “Why, I know right where it is if I’ll think a minute, because that’s where Tony put all that stuff. I’m pretty sure it’s in the back of the house, there’s and office. And, I’m pretty sure he (???) the carpet. There’s a door—isn’t that where it is? And, that’s where Tony would hide the funds if they had ’em on the premise.”

GA — “Well, the trap door in the floor ———- . ”

DON — “I never saw it. She’s the one who did.”

KATHY— -“I did. Because that’s where they put a bunch of stuff that time. And, then when you go through the garage, in the back of the Nashville house, you go through the garage, there’s a storage room on the right.”

DON –It’s a mansion in the very wealthy section of Nashville.

KATHY — “If I’m not mistaken ,I’m not positive because Tony would never — I only got to peek in, he would never let me go in — but, I think there’s sliding doors or something — anyway, it’s made to be hidden. It’s either in that storage room or it’s in the floor of the office there. The thing is when you go in the house, you can’t find the office because the way to enter that office from the house is the bookshelves. Looks like a set of bookshelves, but you push it and it goes into a door and it goes into an office. So when you walk up to the house, you could come to the front door of the house and think you’re seeing the whole house.”

GA — “But, you’re not.”

KATHY — “But, you’re not. And, there’s also separate entrance in the back. I don’t think ???

GA — “Is it a large house?”

KATHY — “It’s mammoth.”

DON— “Oh, yeah.”

KATHY — “And the upstairs. The boys live up there.”

GA — “Are these the workers in Nashville?”

DON — “Yeah they run the Nashville store. They usually sleep up on the (???) , you know what they call the Grotto on the dirt, on pieces of cardboard at the store. That store is open until 3 in the morning. Open at 8, those guys always look like zombies.”

DON— “And another place there, if they had anything to hide Tony used to keep, I don’t know if he kept gold, but I know he used to keep these big drums, you know these five gallon drums, full of silver dollars. And they — he had those in Dyer — when you’d go upstairs, they’ve got little — oh, you know how you’ll have little doors in the wall where you can store things? — they were in there And, if they had those guns, honey, I don’t think Tony would keep the guns. I think he would give them to Ed. Where they would be at Ed (???)_’ s house. I know where Ed-Ed lives, if he still lives in the same house he used to live in.”

GA—”Now, is he (One of the innercircle) ?” *

DON—”Yeah, Ed ______—if there’s anybody put in charge, it’s Ed________.”

KATHY—”And, he’s the one that Tony trusts with guns and stuff. Ed has a very violent background.”

DON—”He was married to Susie’s daughter at one point _(???). She’d probably talk to you too.”

KATHY—”She knows a lot (???)______ . But he’s remarried- He is married to Sharon now and they have a little baby. But, he’s the one that does most of the buying of the guns for Tony. ‘Cause, see, Tony’s buying and putting ’em in his (Ed’s) name. But, I don’t know–we thought they’d eased up, but we talked to somebody’s parents, Leslie—who’s a sister of Debbie and John Malone—Debbie who married John Malone—went down there and said that the kids are working 20 and 23 hours a day again. They’re right back in the same old grind.”

GA—”Well, this is probably part of their deal. To keep ’em so tired, they can’t question

KATHY—”That’s it. You can’t think. You’re too tired. You just do—it’s not worth the hassle. You’re so tired all the time.”

DON—”I couldn’t do—the school work was overwhelming when I came out. I couldn’t do anything.”

GA—”It took awhile to get back in (???).”

KATHY—”And you never get a day off. When we first left it was so hard for us to relax. We’d go on a picnic or something and we thought it was terrible. We’d thought we were gonna get struck dead because we were wasting, not redeeming, the time. It was ridiculous.”

DON—”Those guys, some of them are only—most of ’em are now from 28 to 35 and they all look like they’re in there 40’s at least.”

KATHY—”And, most of ’em have been in there 10 years.”

GA—”They’re driving ’em right in the ground.”

KATHY—” Yeah. See, and now. they’re starting to get a lot of sickness there. When you’re in your early 20’s you body can take a lot more but once you start hitting the 30’s it’s a different story when you’ve been doing it for 8, 9 years. It’s starting to show up now. And, there’s so many babies there. About 90 kids. And that’s something I don’t understand, they have a nursery, in Dyer, for all these kids, it’s got one toilet, one sink and half the time it doesn’t work. It’s on a septic tank and it always backs up. Those kids are always having enfant-tigo and I have called the health department and they won’t do anything. They said you’ll have to pick out one name and make a case out of that. And, different parents have”tried that and all Susie does is ship that one person out of state.”

DON—”Yeah. I took people across state lines a lot of times when the Fed’s were after them. I know of twice. I say a lot of times.”

KATHY—”Well, it’s just terrible.”

GA—”Do they travel quite a bit?”

KATHY—”They go to Nashville a lot.”

GA—”How do they go? Do they fly?”

KATHY—”No. They are afraid that somebody will blow the plane up.”

DON—”They” wouldn’t dare. She thinks they’re after her.”

KATHY—”They really do. She told him that one time. He came in and said ‘I don’t believe this’. ”

DON—”That was one of the turning points in my experience. I got in the car with her and I said, ‘ Susie, why don’t you just fly to Charlotte—she had to go to Charlotte— and she said, (his name) , I can’t get on a plane, they’d blow it up for sure.’

KATHY—”And she’s serious.’ So they’d go in the limo, the limousine, the black limo.”

DON—”With the __________ following.”

GA—”Did they drive it themselves.”

KATHY—”No, Ernie drives. They have a chauffer He’s one of the members of the Foundation.”

DON—”Then they would have a car following with the ‘Beef’ in it incase and (???)_____come up there.”

KATHY—”That’s true. The paranoia picture there is so high there it’s unreal. You really believe everybody is out to get you. And, you’re just on the defensive all the time. It’s sad. It really is.”

GA—”Do you have any knowledge of how the books are kept?” How do they spend cash for themselves and it not get on the books?”

DON—”Well. They’ll take the cash out of the drops every once in awhile. But, then when the drops go to—all- I can talk about is the very recent past and the very early days, in between I don’t know that much about it—But, Tony, for example, if he wanted to go down and buy himself whatever, he takes the money out of the envelopes. But, before too long it was starting to show up on the books that there was a discrepancy so, he would write on the outside of the envelope, I took $700 out of this envelope and put the date and time.’ And, that was the way they got their cash.

GA—”Would they then indicate what the $700 was for?”

DON-“No.”

KATHY—”No nor to the kids. What I saw Tony do — would do on income tax, when he would do these—say like one time I was there and there was like some eighty thousand-“like eighty seven thousand—something like that—that couldn’t be accounted for. So, Tony told Larry, ‘just put down that they spent it on Levi’s for people at the Foundation.’ So they figured out how many pairs of Levis at $3.00/pr.—or something like that—would cost and that’s what they put down as expenses. So that’s what they’d do to cover up.”

GA—”There would be no invoice or anything to back something like that up would there?”

KATHY–“Well, if someone came in and demanded it—no there wouldn’t be one. They probably assumed maybe they wouldn’t ask . Because a lot of times they do go down to L.A. in the garment industry and buy things by lot. And, they’ll buy maybe 500/prs of jeans and give 250 to the Foundation and turn around and sell 250 for twice what they paid for them. I don’t know how—_(???).”

DON–“There would be one person designated in Los Angeles—which is where most of the money was anyway—and that person would have his own checking account and anything that Tony or Susan needed- for themselves—like Susie, every once in a while needed $800 or $900 worth of wigs or Tony would need another $600 pair of boots from Luchese’s or something crazy like that—so Richard would write a check off of his —he’d deposit from the Foundation Account into his account and—”

GA—”Into his name?”

DON—”Yeah. Into his name. He can get copies of those checks from the {???) bank and he’d go downtown and buy whatever it was and put it on the express and send it out to Tony.”

GA—”The money that went into his account would be cash?”

KATHY—”Foundation money.”

DON—”Yeah. He would withdraw money—”

KATHY—”No. He told me that Tony was wiring the money from ah—ah—”

DON—”No-no. Not when I was doing it. He would deposit

(AT THIS POINT TAPE WAS TURNED OVER AND PARTS OF THE CONVERSATION MISSED)

GA — “How they recorded the finances??”

DON — “I’d be there during the compiling of the financial statements at the end of the year. But, I didn’t really participate. I’d see the final printout.”

KATHY — “Larry (???) , the one that is in there now, is the one that does all that.”

DON — “Larry Laroche is the main man on the books. He’ll be there until the day he dies.” GA— “He’s hooked?”

DON— “Yeah.”

KATHY. — “You know, Tony doesn’t know how to do the books. Tony could never explain two-hoots have to call the boys. But, (???) and Richard (???) knows an awful lot about that kind.”

GA— “I may want to talk to them.”

GA — “I have a number of question here and I think you’ve answered quite a few of them.”

DON — “Now, I don’t know if it would be of interest to you — but at one point, Tony, unbeknownst to us, sent $2,000 or $4,000 to a political campaign in Arkansas for a DA that he didn’t want in, that he and then put it down as a personal contribution from us. And, after _ (????) _ . He, after the fact — he told (KATHY) — or Susie told (KATHY) — ‘By the way, (???) to ask you, he just gave some. And, we told the DA in Fort Smith about it and about a lot of other things.”

KATHY — “Yeah. Because the guy that we voted against — was the one that won. So he asked us — ’cause he had on record that we had given some money. At the time, I didn’t know how much we had given. All I know is Susie said, if anybody asked you, you signed your check — you and (DON) gave some money. I said, OK.”

GA — “Do you remember what year that was?”

KATHY — “Well, how long did this DA stay in office? 2 years?”

DON— “It’d have to be in ’77. We left in May ’78.”

KATHY — “It was the year — yeah — it was either 77 or 78. We left in May of 78.”

DON — “It was the election of either 77 or 78.”

GA— “It was by check?”

DON— “I don’t know.”

KATHY — “She said it was. No-no she didn’t — she said if anybody asked you.”

DON — “Well, they wouldn’t have written a check on that Alamo account.”

KATHY — “Yeah — that’s right. It must have been cash. I’ve never Tony or Sue write a check for anything.”

GA—”All of their expenses are paid for by cash?”

KATHY—”Yeah. Like one time they went to Mayo Brothers and Susie bought how many thousands— and Tony paid for it. He used to carry rolls with him.”

DON—”He’d reach in and get a piece of gum and drop $600.”

KATHY — “I kept up their house for them and it was nothing to find just rolls of $500 and $600 laying all over the house. Which is kinda right now—cause now they claim that Richard ______ stole. And, he never stole a penny from them. And, I think to myself, you know, the 10 years that I was in there, I could have easily stole $2,000,000 over the 10 year period. They wouldn’t have missed it—cause everything is so loose. When it come to then, it was just incredible. But, boy, you really run a tight ship. You had to account for everything.”

GA—”Well, these businesses that they’re running that are breaking even, what’s their purpose for confining?”

DON—” (???)_______________is the playground of (???)_______.”

KATHY — “It’s prestige or power crazy.”

GA — “To get their name up.”

DON — “Yeah, and their pictures waving in the air.”

KATHY — “They’ve got (as in trucks) now. As a matter of fact, a girl friend of mine just called me today and said they just bought 2 semi flatbeds from some — .”

DON— “No— boxes.”

KATHY — “Boxes? Were they? They both came to $42,000, from somebody here in Tulsa and she said the reason she knew about was because it was her company and they were getting on them about being late on the bill. I know he would get like semis and put like Alamo and maybe the semi would sit for a year not doing anything.”

GA— “They just don’t do anything with it?”

KATHY — “NO. It’s just for press. It’s just an ego thing.”

DON — “Yeah. They’ve got skip loaders and _(???)_ and all kinds of things just parked out in the fields all over that place. Every once in awhile they’d do some dirt work here and there but it doesn’t pay off.”

KATHY — “Well, like Tony’d say he’d always _ (_?_?_?) into being a rancher or having cattle. So, he’d go off and buy a bunch of cows and died from lack of care. In California they’d go to market and buy all these ___ _ calves and half the time they’d die before they even got ’em hack to the house. He would tell people that he was a rancher. It was an ego thing. He never took anybody out to show his ranch those months all he did was talk about it. One time it was really funny, they had hundreds of chickens, remember that and there was a freeze in California that was unheard of — worst in 30 years or something, it was a few years ago — and the next morning we went outside and all the chickens were lying on their backs with their legs straight up, all dead, all 500 of ’em. And, that was the extent of the chicken farm that was the end of it.”

GA—”Do they ever travel, go on a vacation or anything?”

KATHY-“Just to Nashville.”

DON—”Just to Nashville and back. One time we went to Charlotte. Outside of that, I don’t think they ever went to any other town. They went to Hot Springs, Arkansas for a weekend.”

KATHY-“A Couple of times Susie—Susie comes to Tulsa quite a bit. But, I don’t think she stays over night. As a matter of fact, one of our neighbors who used to work in an art gallery—Susie a year ago opened a savings account here in Tulsa—And he couldn’t remember what bank it was cm, because he remembered it (the savings account) he knew us, knew we had been in the Foundation, he was from Ft. Smith—and he worked in an art gallery—and he said Tony and Sue came in and about a year ago and bought a picture for about $350 and the reason he knew was the check bounced. And, I asked him well, was it a local check and he said, yeah, it was on a Tulsa bank.”

DON—”It wasn’t a savings. It was a checking.”

KATHY—”Yeah. I mean it was a checking. So, she does have one.”

GA—”So, that would’ve been in her name?”

DON—”Well, we don’t know.”

KATHY—”He said it was in her name. He said it was in Susie’s name.”

DON—”That’s not the way they operated when I was there. There was nothing in their name.”

KATHY—”A lot of the time Susie wouldn’t buy stuff in Ft. -Smith because she didn’t want people to know what she was purchasing.”

DON—”I’d get on an airplane at Ft. Smith and fly out to California and spend 3 hours and get back on an airplane and come back with gear for Tony and Susan, whatever.”

KATHY—”Susie and Tony there toward the end were fighting a lot. Tony was getting-you know Susie was spending money just water—so a few years ago he’d just give her anything—but then toward the end before I left, they’d start getting in real big, knock down, drag out fights because she was spending money. Cause she’d spend $1,000 on a dress and not bat an eye. She got to where she was up tight about it and she did threatened a lot of times to get her own banking—own checking account. S3, I don’t know, she might have. She used to come to Tulsa by herself with a couple of the girls.”

DON—”Well she got that $50,000 check from Jeanie and kept that herself.”

KATHY—”Yeah. Jeanie gave her $50,000 just before I left. Told her it was to buy furniture for her house. Plus, Jeanie had given her—there had been this diamond ring in their family for years — and that was one thing that Jeanie’s mother did give her when she died—and so Jeanie gave it to Susan. And, Susie had it appraised and she sent me down to pick up the appraisal and I’ve never looked at any of their personal stuff—for some reason—this was about 3 weeks before we left—and for some reason I looked at it and it was appraised at $11,000. But the funny thing was I didn’t think anything about it and then about 3 days later, Susie and Jean and I were in a car — and Susie had the ring back on — and Susie didn’t know that I had looked at the appraisal — and she to Jean, I had this ring appraised and said it isn’t worth the setting it’s on. She said there’s a flaw in the middle and it’s absolutely worthless and my mouth just dropped open. I thought, now look that just an out and out lie. And, that’s when I started realizing, hey, this woman is not what she’s —- . Since we’ve left, I told this one lawyer that, and it got back to the Foundation. (to DON) So, what was Susie’s excuse?-”

DON — “Susie said the appraiser did that as a favor to her. Put $11,000 on there but actually it wasn’t worth anything.”

KATHY — “So in case she ever wanted to sell it she’d get it. You know, but what jeweler is gonna stick his neck out like that and lie? But, Jean believed it.”

GA — ” The members that work out, do they get their own job or does Tony get the job for them — how is this done?”

KATHY— “They do.”

DON — “They do. They’ll go out and bid a framing job or bid a plumbing job.”

KATHY — “See they can underbid everybody. Because they don’t draw wages.”

GA — “Well, is it mostly self employment type jobs or do they work — ?”

DON— “Mostly bid construction. The bulk of it.”

GA — “Do any of them work for anyone else?”

KATHY—“Yeah.”

DON — “Yeah, every once in awhile 60 start working at the factory for awhile.”

KATHY — “The foundry, a lot of girls work at the foundry. It’s seasonal. Like, when the bad weather comes and they can’t do a lot of carpentry then they’ll go work in a canning factory or something for a couple of months. And then when the weather gets nice again, they’ll go back out and — .”

GA — “They just endorse their check over when they..”

KATHY — “Like when — on the landscaping crew, they don’t get individual checks, the guy gives it to the head — to Gary (???) , who’s the head guy and the other guys probably don’t know how much money they’re getting for the job.”

DON — “Well, a lot of the businesses have their own account. And, on that one, the nursery they would deposit and buy whatever they needed for their supplies. And, if Tony saw an excess, he would draw off of it.”

GA — “Well didn’t he have them file tax returns, or do you know?”

KATHY— “We never did.”

DON — “Larry took care of all that. I remember, on the individuals, we got in big trouble years ago, and I figured out what we owed the government on the individuals. We just let ’em accumulate and just ignored it for years.”

GA— “Never paid ’em?”

KATHY — “I never did fill out one all the time I was there.”

DON — “I remember seeing a stack of those — those little forms.”

KATHY — “Toward the last, wasn’t there a big stick about that and someone else filled ’em all out and we all had to sign them?”

DON—”Yeah- There was some kinda big, hulk deal. Everybody lined up and signed something. We went down and had an accountant get it together for us and we paid on a quarterly “basis.”

GA—”Was that in Ft. Smith?”

DON—”No, that was in California.”

GA—”In California?”

KATHY—”Yeah.”

DON—”We were working on the farm labor.”

RG—”You don’t know—like the ones that go out and work and get W-2—they didn’t file returns on those.”

DON—”They do now. They didn’t for a while and they got in trouble. But, now they’ve straightened out their act. When the W-2’s come in, Larry takes care of it. Every¬body makes sure their W-2 is in order.”

RG—”Do you know who files those returns for them? Who prepares them?”

DON—”Do you mean the accountant.”

RG—”Yeah.”

DON—”It was a guy named Brady, years and years ago. But, we dropped him. Then it was a whole crew of them in Los Angeles. We went from one to the other. I guess they didn’t want us.” I don’t remember any names now.”

KATHY—”I don’t know if they’ve ever done it in Arkansas. The carpenters don’t get checks.”

DON—”They’ll have the checks made out to themselves personally. But they don’t have any personal—they never file anything.”

KATHY—”No. What I’m saying is when they get paid for a job, like 4 or 5 carpenters will go frame a house —the contractor doesn’t pay each one of them individually. He gives them one check. And, they turn it over to Tony.” So, if anyone ever asks you, you say you didn’t work that year or whatever you don’t ever file a return cause you don’t have any income.”

DON—”There was an Alamo Construction account separate from everything else. But, more likely that not that—Don (???? __ would get the check.”

GA — “Do they ever get any monies, as far as you know, from outside people donating or celebrities or anything along that line?”

DON — “One time they got a check for $40,000 back in the days when we were scraping.”

KATHY — “Tony told us it was an anonymous donor. We have found out from a couple that Tony and Sue wanted to be assistant pastor’s, and they realized what Tony and Sue wouldn’t get involved — we found out that (from them) it was a lie. It was one of the girls in there gave the money. But, Tony and Sue anybody else to know. They wanted to beef it up like it was an anonymous donor. But I used to open all the (???) mail and I would say gosh $20, or $45 at the most.”

DON — “They had that television show in every major market in the nation for awhile. But, I think they’ve cut that out now.”

GA — “Yeah. That didn’t produce did it?”

DON — “No-no. Just a lot of hate letters.”

KATHY — “A lot of ’em they put in the nut file. What they call the ‘nut file.’ In most of the letters would get would be people asking for Tony’s record. Cause Tony on the show would advertise that he would send you an album. And, Tony never made any money on the album.”

DON — “He’s made 12 albums the average cost was $80,000 each, I guess.”

GA — “Are these singing or what.”

KATHY — “He never sells ’em. He gives them away. He can hardly give them away. It’s terrible.”

GA — “I gather he can’t sing.”

DON— “No-no.”

KATHY— “He’d make you sick.”

DON — “You’ve got to understand these two are meglia maniacs. If there’s anyway they can rub elbows with country and western stars or anybody else that’s famous .That’s the whole idea behind the albums. He records with Porter Waggonner. He’s just thrilled to death to be in the same room with Porter Waggonner.”

GA — “He’s just buying his way then?”

KATHY — “Yeah. I remember the last album they cut, Tony hired the best country and western musicians in the country. How much did that session cost (to DON) ’em? $10,000?” That wasn’t counting what they paid the individual people themselves plus they paid their room and board, they stayed in the best hotels, everybody would laugh behind Tony’s back because they’re suckers. Tony and Sue would do anything if you’re a name. Like, at the Alamo Store, they’ll — to get stars to shop there; Tony and Sue will give them a $3,000 or $4,000 outfit.”

DON — “The ones that the girls have been making for 18 hours a night.”

KATHY — “Of course, the kids don’t know that. Unless you’re in the innercircle and you’re around Tony and Sue, you don’t—you think the church is profiting and that’s it all going in the—-see, that’s another thing, they tell you when you’re there that all this work and all this money you’re making is going into the gospel and it’s not.”

GA—”They don’t have, any gospel, do they?”

KATHY—”No-no- They don’t have any outreach. The kid who told, ‘we support missions, we support missionaries.’ They do no such thing. Tony sent one check to a missionary foundation for $22.50.”

DON—”Then got up in the pulpit and said we’re supporting missions around the world.”

KATHY—”He held up a leaflet—like you know like every child will send you, if you send money or something—He held it up and said, ‘see we’re supporting this mission,’ and if it wasn’t for us they couldn’t keep on. I thought, man $22.50 keep them going the world’s—”

GA—”In sad shape!”

KATHY–Yeah. But, see you don’t know that when you’re in there. And, there’s about 15 or 20 people in what they call the innercircle. The people who are around Tony and Sue all the time that probably know it. but, the average kid would die for Tony and Sue. If they heard us talking like we’re talking now, they’d think we were blasphemers.”

DON—”Well, we are the Devil, manifested in the flesh, as far as they’re concerned right now. And, these are people–the closest friends I had for a decade.”

GA—”The innercircle, do they know everything or just bits and pieces?”

KATHY—”No one ever knows everything.”

GA—”So, there’s no one that close to Tony and Sue?”

DON—”Between Larry and Ed you’ve probably have percent of (???) .”

KATHY-“Well, I was the closest to Susie of anybody. I probably knew more on the Foundation than anybody.”

DON—”Not the financial end of it.”

KATHY—”Yeah. Cause Tony wouldn’t even tell Susie the financial end of it. He would do the finances when she was asleep. Because they would get in so many fights, because she would want to run the business one way and he would the other and it was a conflict of personalities all time. So he’d just wait ’till she was asleep. Then, he’d do the finances. So we would never know what was going on. But, Larry would know that. Ed, Tony kinda dropped out of the picture, lately, the last few years.”

GA—”Do they have any high powered attorneys or accountants, or anything on retainers?”

DON—”Yeah. They’ve got Morris Levine, as one high powered attorney, in California. Have you heard of him?”

GA—”Yeah. I’ve heard of him. I’ve seen articles in the paper.”

KATHY—”Oh, they’ve got an attorney in Ft. Smith. Another one you might be able Co talk to is Sam Sexton. He just dropped them. He used to be their attorney in Ft. Smith. Have you heard of him?”

GA—”I know him. Well, excuse me, I know of him.”

KATHY—”Well, he’s a nice man. We’re the ones who convinced him that Tony and Sue were a bunch of phonies. Because we went and saw him after we left. He knows all kinds of stuff. I’m sure he knows more than we know.”

DON—”We wouldn’t want to presume that he’d be willing to—.”

KATHY—”No, no. He might be put in the position, because of the—a lot of the stuff, cause he was their attorney. He couldn’t tell you anyway, maybe. What I’m saying is he might know. They have now, what’s his name, Roy Gene, is their attorney now.”

DON—”But high powered though—outside of Morris Levine and Jordan Wank.”

KATHY—”Jordan Wank, he’s the one who drew up the corporation papers,” DON—”Who are some of the others?””

KATHY—”That’s the only two they’d had that I know of. I think there’s been a couple of others.”

DON—”BOB (??) and Dan Harm.”

KATHY—”Yeah. Dan Harm would know a lot ’cause he was there during all the buying of all that property and when we were establishing.”

GA—”Is he an attorney?”

DON—”Yeah, In Saugus, California.”

KATHY-“Dan Hanh—or—-”

DON—”Or Newhall.”

KATHY—”Yeah. Newhall N-E-W-H-A-L-L in California. He might not be there anymore that’s been 10 years ago. He might tell you a lot because he ended up on a black note with Tony and Sue.”

DON—”While I think of it, I remember one thing that I was thought was funny—During the time that there was so much money going into producing video tapes, and bicycling them around the nation to different markets, we opened up the Hartford Advertising-they called it, an in house advertising agency— because that allowed us a 15% break on our cost. And that thing was never registered with anybody or ever paid any of its taxes. I remember telling Tony that sooner of later that somebody is gonna find out this thing has saved us a lot.”

GA—”The operation in Nashville, the monies taken from that place – is what deposited in the bank or—.”

DON—”They have two accounts in Nashville. But, I couldn’t tell you the names of the banks.”

KATHY— “One’s First.”

DON— “Yeah. First National.”

KATHY — “First something.”

GA-“Does the money there get back to Alma.”

DON — “Yeah. They’ll pay their bills and whatever’s left over.”

KATHY— “How do they do that though?”

DON — “They’d just write a check on it.”

GA — “Write a check in Alma on the bank in Nashville.”

DON — “Right, And that’s the way they’ll do the California accounts too.”

GA — “Now. You mentioned one time that they wire money back — as a form of the way of transferring money,”

DON — “Yeah. For awhile there, every two or three nights, there was a trip made down from Saugus to Los Angeles to wire many thousands of dollars out to Ft. Smith. When Tony and Sue first arrived in Arkansas, that was the way that they — .”

GA — “So, this was cash?”

DON— “Cash. Right.”

KATHY — “See, most of the time too, Tony and Sue were in Nashville and they would take the money.

DON— “Out of the drawer.”

KATHY — “It would be nothing for them to just walk in the store and clean out the drawer and go spend it. I don’t know how they accounted for that at the end of the day. I definitely know that they didn’t tell the kids what they were spending it on and they made me throw away all the receipts. I don’t know how they could have covered that.

DON— “Well, things have changed — .”

KATHY — “We thought it changed, but it hasn’t. It’s back to the same ol’.”

DON — “We thought with our departure, and the lawsuit, Tony and Sue might ease up on the kids. But, we heard they haven’t.”

GA — “How many members do they have?”

DON– “400 to 600 and that’s all I can tell you.”

GA — “And most of them are in Alma?”

KATHY — “Yeah. I’d say about 350. Easily 350 because when we left, there was over 200 and we heard a few months ago that they had 100 more come out from California and there’s about 90 -children. ”

GA—”Do they just live everywhere or do they have a central place or what?”

DON— “Well anything they live in owned by the Foundation.”

KATHY—”They have some places in Dyer, some in Alma. They have like one in Mountainburg where a lot of the single brothers live. They have 6 or 7 cabins in Mountainburg and there’s about 4 or 5 brothers to every cabin. Then, they have a motel and an apartment unit, a 12 unit apartment.

DON—”Two houses in Ft. Smith.”

KATHY—”Yeah. A couple houses in Ft. Smith.”

GA—”They’re really crowded up then?”

KATHY—”They are and they aren’t.”

DON— “It used to be a lot worse.”

GA— (???) .”

KATHY—”Well, we heard they just built a bunch of dorms up on the ridge, on the mountain top up there, in Dyer, up on Georgia Ridge and that’s where these people are working 22 to 24 hours a day (???) . When you walk in there, unless like in your houses that Susie builds for the married couples (???)________ your furniture. Everything is showplace, and she buys all this real cheap furniture, like this velvet stuff and all that for $200, where you can get a loveseat and couch and chair and all that type stuff—if you sit on it for 6 months, it’s gonna fall apart. So, you’re not allowed to sit on your furniture. You’re not ever allowed to cook in your house, so all your fixtures are really for eye appeal. Nothing is used. One of the girls there, her mother came to visit at 9:00 a.m. one morning—she’s on good terms with the foundation and she said, ‘listen, I know my daughter does not have all the beds made, all the dishes done at 9 o’clock in the morning—what’s going on?’ But, see, you never cook any meals, you have a central kitchen where you get all your meals and you don’t have any food in the house because you don’t have any money to buy any. But, everything is just outward appearance. Like, our house, we live on the ridge, Tony and Sue bought this property and it had a house on an A frame, which is really a pretty house—so she would use that whenever her guests or parents would come out—she’d show them that house. There are set places where she takes visitors. They never see the rest of it. They only see about 2 or 3 places that she wants them to see and she fixes those up to the hilt She tells the newspapers and all that, this is a sample of where they all live. It’s not true. Like, in our place, it was 2 three bedroom house. We had a girl who lived with us who had the master suite upstairs with a bath and another couple lived with us and she (Susie) told everybody that just (DON) and I lived in this four bedroom house . The couple had one of the bedrooms and she had her furniture in one bedroom and in one bedroom was (DON) and I and (our child) and we were taking care of this little boy. So there was four of us. She makes it look like everybody living—–.”

GA—”Real nice.?.”

KATHY—”Yeah. And you’re never home so there’s no chance of you running into anybody when she taking them on a tour of your house ’cause you’re always gone from 8 in the morning and you usually come dragging in about 12 or 1 (p.m.)..”

DON — “Another interesting thing, Tony at one point found out that all the purchases were supposed to have been done from a meeting of the charter members — what do they call it — the board of directors, long after the fact. So, He went through and made up resolutions saying —

KATHY– “Minutes”

DON — “Yeah, minutes saying that the Foundation agreed. I mean, it was just piles of them. He made them in one night.”

KATHY — ‘”Cause Levine told him what happened was, suppose to be having those all along. I was on the original charter as vice-president and I didn’t know I was. All I know is when the foundation first started, Tony told me to sign a piece of paper, I asked him what it was and he said, ‘oh, we just need a third signature.’ I never even read it. So, it wasn’t until years later that I found out that I was on the charter. All, this time according to non-profit, we were supposed to be having these meetings and supposed to approve on everything they bought, purchases, this and that. So, when Levine found out Tony wasn’t doing it, he told Tony he had better get it done. So, Tony had him type up a whole bunch of ’em in a couple of days.”

DON — “For all the vehicles we bought over the last 8 years.”

GA — “Do they have any central place to keep records accounting office so to speak?”

DON — “In Dyer behind their house is a long office building and I guess now that everybody is out of California that would be where the bulk of it is. Although, there’s the same set up in California — or there was — with an office full of file cabinets.”

KATHY — “It might be and they might have some in _ (? ? ? ) and they might have some in Nashville. ”

GA — “They could have just anything ___ (?_??) .”

KATHY — “Well most recent would most definite be in the house in — . But, see the thing because of our law suit going now, they’re going to be a lot more careful about making any accessible. See, the office used to be open 24 hours. I’m sure they’ve put locks and stuff on them and everything not as open as it used to be.”

DON — “They have a night watchman _ (??_? ) _ sitting in the car.”

GA — “Have they turned any records over to the court?”

DON— “Not as I know.”

KATHY — “Now the court asked them for a — what’d ya call it?’

DON — “I think when it pretrialed, David said that they will have to allow us to go through the books.”

KATHY — “Well, we heard that the labor board — no someone told us the IRS — that they wanted to _ (??? ) get ahold of the books. Who told us that, Sexton-didn’t he?”

GA— “That the IRS did what?”

KATHY — “That their supposed to get the books turned over to ’em or something from the year — from 1975 on. Who told us — didn’t someone tell us that?”

DON — “Yeah, I vaguely remember that.”

KATHY- “That’s what we heard.” GA- — “That’s news to me.”

KATHY — “We heard that and we heard the labor board (???) a case against ’em. We still don’t know don’t know what happened with the labor board.”

DON — “Yeah. The labor board is hot after them.” GA — “Yeah. I saw that in the paper too .”

DON — “But the IRS in California cleared them up to year — I don’t know- 73 or 74. And, then-what she’s talking about, I can’t remember where I heard it or it had any basis and fact but the IRS was working on the years thereafter.”

GA — “Do you think that was recent that you heard that?”

KATHY — “Well, since we’ve been out.”

GA — “The last few years?”

KATHY — “And, then the guy with IRS that did the last investigation-his name was Fitz.

GA— “Fits?”

DON— “Fitz.”

KATHY — “Mr. Fitz. That’s right Cause we tried to get ahold of him. Cause I wrote his name down and I’ve been trying to call him — .”

DON — “no-no. You’re talking labor board. Fitz is labor board.’

KATHY— “Yeah, you’re right. No-no, I don’t know.”

GA — Unfortunately, we have internal rules that we can get information but we can’t give information. Because everything we do, of course, is confidential. There’s times I’m sure we would like to, but, we’re prohibited from doing so.”

KATHY — “What is illegal with anything — what could they do that could be illegal? Seem like they get away with everything.”

GA— “I don’t know.”

DON— “What approach might the IRS take?”

GA — “Well, that’s what I’m here for is to find out. I’m on the outside looking in and I need all the information — ”

KATHY — (???) they wanted to cover everything.”

DON — “It’d be nice if you could go in and look in that safe.” GA — “Yeah. It’d be very interesting.”

DON—”You don’t have enough, yet, to justify it?”

KATHY—”We’ll see, Sam is the one that told us that it would be nothing for them to get an accountant out of the state—I mean the country and to Funnel. People do it all the time. He said,’ you might think it is a hard thing to do, but it isn’t. But, I don’t know because Tony and Sue are so paranoid with other people they might not trust anybody.

GA—”Are either of them, say, a licensed preacher” Or, do they have any credentials?”

KATHY—”We saw the licenses in Florida; tell him where they got ’em.”

DON—” You know these little outfits during the draft dodger days that could write and send $6.00 and they’d make you pastor/minister that’s their ordination.”

KATHY — “See, that’s another thing we wondered—we went through a lot of stuff when we were packing her in Saugus-when she was moving down to Arkansas—and told the kids and all this that she had been a minister over 25 years—we found her and Tony’s license and they had gotten them the same day from a little mail order type place in Venice, California. And, Chris, who is Susie’s daughter, since then tried to —her and (name)____ , this reporter,…”

DON—”He’s Judge Sirica’s son.”

KATHY—”They did an investigation trying to find out if Tony and Sue’s license’s were legit or what. And, he tracked down this place in Venice and the guy had closed. He had been open for about 30 years. He just disappeared.”

GA—”Is this ____________ the one who was in Tennessee?”

KATHY—”Yes. The one that did that audit.”

GA—”Is he still there or do you know?”

KATHY—”Yeah. Well, he was with the Ted Kennedy campaign, so I don’t know. Cause he called us a few weeks ago and told us he was with the Ted Kennedy campaign. So he might still be there. We saw their license and they got ’em the same day, same year.”

DON—”It’s this little mail order house.”

KATHY—”The other thing is that–why I wonder is that she told us —see the main reason you stay in the foundation is that she tells you that eventually she is going to ordain you and you are going out and start churches. She doesn’t marry people.”

DON—”Or when she found out that there might be kinda trouble from it, she stopped marrying people. She married us. We were the last people she married.”

KATHY—”Yeah. And, since then, they’ve been sending people to _(???)_______. So- I don’t what their license’s allows.”

GA—”But, they did sign a marriage certificate?”

KATHY—”Yeah. Ours is signed. By Tony not Susan.”

GA—”I guess there’s no check by any central authority in the State to see if that is a valid preacher or not?”

KATHY—”I know Tony—they’re so afraid of the law (??) to sign their name. So, I don’t think Tony would sign. Cause his name is on our marriage certificate..”

DON—”Yeah. How, they only did that in the very beginning. They’ve stopped in the last six years, and not married anybody.”

GA—”Has there been anyone that died in the organization. Have they buried anyone there?”

KATHY—”Yes.”

DON—”Yeah. A suicide.”

KATHY—”Yeah. They’ve buried two people. There was a couple there that had a little 3 month baby—a couple months younger that Soupy—it was born with—you know the soft spot on it’s head—well it’s scull was grown together. What happened was the doctor told ’em the baby ought to have and operation—it would be a simple operation to open the scull—so—”

DON—”They were told at the outset that the child might well otherwise die.”

KATHY—”Cause the pressure it would put on the brain. The couple called Susie and Sue said go down to some kinda medical aid or something and see if they can finance it. Well they did and what happened was a couple years before there had been a girl born at the foundation-a baby, Rebecca, who had a heart defect—and the Children’s medical thing had covered that bill, but that bill but the agreement was that Tony and Sue was suppose to pay certain percentage of it. But, Tony and Sue hadn’t kept their part of the bargain and this other couple was turned down. They (the medical people) said, if you’ll get Tony and Sue to sign this release that they’ll come with 20% -or whatever it was—we will go ahead and give you the money for that operation. Well, Tony and Sue refused and the baby died.”

(INTERRUPTION TAPE CHANGED AND PART OF CONVERSATION LOST)

DON—”Malnutrition.”

KATHY—”One of the causes. It was a brain damage.”

DON—”I was next to him when he died. He just—over a course of months—just shriveled up and died.”

GA—”And, they buried him and signed the burial certificate”

KATHY—”Yeah. Performed the thing and everything.. ”

GA—”Apparently, there is some legitimacy to his certificate.”

KATHY—”Susie didn’t. Tony did. She always makes him do the ceremonies. So she might not be kept up on her license. Even the marriage ceremonies she’s never done any, Tony always them.”

GA—”What activities do they have in the church building?”

GA—”Just Sunday service?’

DON—”And every morning there’s the programming. Every morning there’s the morning meeting at 8 o’clock and at 8 o’clock at night. You know, that’s across the street in Dyer, there’s another little building.”

KATHY—”That used to be the old church.” That was 2 years ago.”

GA—”Does everyone meet, or—?”

DON—”Yeah. The mornings— The ones that have the morning shift at the gas station and all, come to the one at night. And, the ones that have the night shift; come to the one in the morning. Tony rebukes them and tells them whatever is going on.”

KATHY — ‘”It’s really—what it is, they have confessions and stuff, where you get up and tell openly what you did. Cause they tell you that’s the way God’ll forgive you. Really, it’s a way that they keep tabs on you and what you’re thinking. Like you will get up and say, ‘Yesterday I really thought bad about Tony and Sue because I saw them do this, but now, I repent.’ Well, ? ??)______would get up and say they’d have a question, Tony and Sue’s authority would never be put in their place.”

DON—””In fact, no body ever said anything.”

GA—”No secrets, no privacy, or anything?”

KATHY—”No-no. None at all. It’s because (???)________ to do that. But, you’re holding back on God but you think you’re being true and bearing you’re heart and all you’re doing is giving them—well, what you’re thinking.”

GA—”Well do they encourage people to marry or something like that, within..”

KATHY—”Now, almost everybody is married. There is only one girl that is not married. So there out a girls.”

DON—”There’s only 1/4 or 1/5 as many girls as there are men.”

KATHY—There’s only 60 or 70 girls. And, there’s 200-250 boys.”

GA—”Because they would go out and work and bring in the money, is that by design you think, that ratio?”

KATHY—”No-no. Just more guys came in.

DON—”No. No design.”

KATHY — “There were a lot of girls that came in the organization but most of them didn’t stay because there was such a lack for a guy. _ patch pants and stuff, but for most women they want — the outward appearance means more than it does a guy. So, most of them wouldn’t stay more than a weak of so, maybe.”

GA — “Back to these Sunday services. now long do they last?””

DON— “About 2 hours . ‘

GA — “Well, it is a preaching type situation or is it more of this —– ”

DON — “No, the Sunday service that’s open to the public is a —– . ”

GA — “Strictly a formal service.”

DON— “Yeah. That’s it.”

KATHY — “More outward appearance. They get up and sing a few songs give testimonies.”

DON — “I remember at one point, in order to justify something with the tax people, in order to make their gas station free of some kind of liability with the government, they put a stack of gospel tracts in the businesses. That made them an adjunct of the church or something.”

KATHY — “Yeah.” That’s what we’ve often thought with cults, if they’d just make it — you know you can’t mix church and government — I don’t know, I’m just saying — you know people like Moonie and that — they get away with taking in all this money and not having to account for it, if they’d just made you pay once cent income tax on a $100 or a $1,000, Just enough to keep tabs on what comes in. After, all people are tithing to an organization; they have a right to know where that money is going.”

DON—“Just a matter or public record. ”

KATHY — “Well, it is with a foundation.” Can anybody go in and look at Moonie’s records?”

GA — “Any organization that has an exemption under section 5Ql(c)(3) of the Code, which is the one that covers religious, charitable, scientific, etc. Their tax return is open to inspection by the general public. Now, as far as their records, no. But, their tax return is. But they are more or less a public organization, and not a private organization.”

KATHY — “But on a tax return, you can put anything on paper.”

GA — “That’s true.” That’s what we’re supposed to be here for.”

DON — “Another thing that’s not what it is — at one point I had to give in lieu of military service, I had to two years in a hospital, during the early 70’s and in order to return to the foundation and let them be my over-sear, as it were, where the hospital was, during my two years of duty—that was when the foundation got their tax free number as a result — I was the one that petitioned the government to allow the founda¬tion to have this status, so I could go to them and fulfill my military duty.”

GA — “So you didn’t have to go?”

DON — “That was the beginning of their tax free number. And that’s when I started that tax free number on my own taxes to get it off my taxes. I know that was the beginning of it.”

GA— “That’s the other item that is open to public inspection, is the application for exemption. That for itself and all that is attached and the annual tax return is open to public inspection upon request. You can come to Internal Revenue and ask for it and we’ll show it to you.”

KATHY— “Another thing they did when they first moved the foundation to Arkansas from
California, they put all the businesses, about 90 of them, in their own name and not the foundation. And, when we found out about it, we flipped. And, then, they made ( —- ) put a notice in the paper that they were all being changed over.”

DON — “Yeah. There was a notice the next day that all these properties, these 50 acres, and just a big list of the things that were changed into the name of the foundations Inc . .”

GA — “This Levine is he a up and up attorney?”

KATHY — “No. He’s as crooked and as reprobate as.”

DON— “Well, we’ve got nothing really to base that on.”

KATHY— “He knows that Tony and Sue are a bunch of phonies. He’s so old, he’s almost senile. His daughter is the whizz. I can’t remember her name.”

GA— “But, they’re on his payroll and they do his bidding?”

KATHY–“Yeah. He gives them advice and then tells them what to do. Susie’s always on the phone with her. They’re friends. And, she’s smart so they’re always stay one jump ahead .”

GA — “Do you know if they paid them by check or cash?”

DON— “I remember a retainer going to them for $10,000.00 when they first started, when we first took them on, in order to handle — what situation was that when first got serious with Levine?”

KATHY— “What year was it?”

DON — “Long time ago.”

KATHY — ” (???)

DON—“I don’t know. It could have been. I personally had gone to Levine with my own matters. Then something happened and we sent him $10,000.00 to retain him and a lot of money thereafter.”

KATHY—“Was it by check?”

DON—“No-mo. I sure it was.”

GA—“Nearly all expenses at the foundation are paid by check? It’s just personal expenses for Tony and Susan that’s usually paid by cash?”

DON — “Yeah. Everything is leased.”

GA — “Now, all the property, land, that they own, is that pretty well in just California,
Alma, Nashville and this Phoenix property?”

DON— “Yeah. You got it.”

KATHY — “And, Dyer. That’s all they’ve got that we know of.”

GA — “And, there’s still some people in California but most of them are in Arkansas?”

KATHY — “And, some in Nashville. Maybe 40 if that many.”

DON — “There is not very many there. More like 25.”

GA — “And, they’re all involved in the store?”

KATHY— “Yeah.”

DON— “And, there’s a candy company out there too. Then, Sirica’s rep. made his article in the newspaper and everybody stopped doing any business.. Still, to this day, Rohny Millsap and all the country stars buy all their clothes there. See, the Alamo (???) . ”

GA — “Well, how did this Sirica get involved?”

DON — “He was just a young enterprising reporter?”

GA — “I mean, just looking at their store, you wouldn’t know what the operation is.”

KATHY — “He knew us before; he came out to Dyer one time.”

DON — “Yeah, it was Dyer.” I talked to him myself,”

GA–“I just wondered what triggered his investigation.”

DON — “I don’t know. Just a hot story.”

DON— “Chris.”

DON— “Yeah, Chris.”

KATHY — “Susie’s daughter met him and told him about it. They became very good friends.”

DON There were a lot of stories in the course of the years before Sirica.”

KATHY–“We just sent our lawyer a whole box of ’em. There’s been so many news things on the foundation.” As a matter of fact, there was another reporter doing something?

GA — “Apparently, I’m just scratching the surface of this organization. ”

DON — “There’s a lot to be told.”

KATHY — “It’s still kinda (???)__ just like on our court case, any smart attorney could stop us. He could say, well, that’s irrelevant. Like on these depositions they’re having to be taken over again, Tony and Sue’s, the 22nd of this month, because apparently told them that they didn’t have to answer anything prior to the founding of the Foundation,”

DON—”Anything relevant. Susie’s got a criminal record. Both, Tony and Sue, do.”

KATHY—”Susie’s done time for prostitution and everything.”

DON—”Tony’s for interstate trafficking of fire arms and mail fraud and statutory rape.”

GA—”Did he serve time?”

DON—”Yeah. I don’t know, did Tony ever do time (to KATHY)? ”

KATHY—”In jail for mail fraud—he said he did.”

DON—”In Jail?”

KATHY—”Yeah.”

DON—”I know Susie has done time.”

KATHY—”And, the kids don’t know that. See we could never figure out why Susie put herself on the line like that and loose everything. And, then when we read the deposition, we realized that everything that was asked her about her past, her lawyer told her not to answer—she didn’t have to answer. It was irrelevant. So what’s happened is that our attorney has called in the judge. He’s coming in to oversee it to make Tony and Sue answer the past—because it’s been judged that it is. Now Susie,—it was supposed to the the 12th and 14th—and she’s says she’s too sick.”

GA—”Now, this (???__)________ that attorney, is he the one handling it?”

KATHY—”Right, yeah. Once we get on the stand to tell the court what we’re telling you, if they have a sharp judge, he’ll say strike it—it’s irrelevant.”

GA—”Or hearsay, or whatever.”

KATHY—”Yeah. You’re almost facing a loosing battle. Our whole thing is that by just getting them out, it’ll make the kids start thinking. Give them something to judge from rather than just believing everything they hear. Throw some doubt in there and maybe their minds start working.”

GA—”Well, do they get newspapers or watch T.V.?”

KATHY—”It’s pretty monitored. They’ll have T.V.’s for looks but you’re never home to watch it. You get home about 12 or 1 o’clock (a.m.) and the only thing on is Carson.”

DON—”Technically, every piece of reading material has got to be screened. Although, that has loosened in the last few years because of me. Nobody stays up with current events.

KATHY—”Yeah. And because, people are working jobs now. For years, nothing was allowed but the Bible. If you saw, anybody reading a periodical, Newsweek, or something, you put ’em on report. Now, with everybody out working it’s kinda hard. A lot of the boys during the lunch hour will pick up a newspaper and read it or something. But, I’d say that three quarters of the people would never see any.—see a newspaper article.”

GA—”Do they have—this Beef you were talking about—do they circulate and kinda keep ’em in line?”

DON—” No it’s not that.” KATHY—”They don’t need to.

DON—”They have their jobs and are called in when—what Tony and Sue deem to be a dangerous situation.”

KATHY—”But, like everybody—there’s like an overseer type situation—but Susie’s dropped the word overseer—but there’s like somebody in charge. When I was there, I was in charge of the restaurant, made sure all the girls were on time, and did what they were suppose to, if they didn’t, I had it in the reports every night.”

DON—”She (KATHY) was third in charge. There’s really no third in charge. But, she was as high as you can get in the hierarchy.”

KATHY—”probably the most hated too. Cause, I had to do all the dirty work. What Susie didn’t want to do, I had to do. Now, that I’ve left, she’s made it look like I just did it on my own rather than instruction from her. But, like California, like before we left, those people hadn’t seen Tony and Sue in like 5 years. This tells you how strong the hold is on them. They hadn’t seen them in 5 years, Tony and Sue would call,—they had like an intercom system set up in the main sanctuary, Tony and Sue would maybe once every two to three weeks and maybe uplift them. What ever Susie felt like. If maybe nothing happened, maybe like rebuke them. She held those peoples minds. We used to go over there and I’m telling you it was such a depressing place. And people on the outside don’t understand—” say how. But, see, you don’t go anywhere. You’re day is completely scheduled. You wake up. You get on a certain vehicle, you go up to the kitchen, you peel potatoes all day long or you sort vegetables. You don’t think there’s Bible records’ being played all the time or else Tony and Sue’s messages are being played. You never think. And, if anything comes in your mind contrary to what you’ve been told. You’re taught to come against it. Do not receive it. It’s of the Devil. It’s just like a bunch of zombies walking around. It really is.”

GA—”It’s kinda beyond my comprehension.”

KATHY—”We look back now and say, how could we have gotten mixed up in something like that?” It’s not where like overnight they say, like you’re gonna do this. It’s a process. Your hooked on it before you know your hooked.”

DON—”And, then Jonestown happened and I thought, in a manner of speaking—it’s good ’cause not people are gonna understand now, how dangerous these things can be. Cause people just don’t understand.”

KATHY—”They don’t understand.”

GA—”well, they want to forget something bad.”

DON—”And the word brain washing, I don’t know how appropriate that is, but it is to

KATHY—”Like when you first join the foundation, you don’t believe you’re gonna stay there. You never believe that. You think, well, I’m gonna stay here a few days and read the Bible and get strong in the Lord and then go out. And, before you know it, two weeks have gone by, three weeks. Then when it comes the time when you want to make that decision and leave, you’re so programmed—that if you leave, the Devil is out there. You’re so programmed; you can’t make that decision anymore. And, you keep putting it off and pretty soon before you know it, it turns into 5 years, 6 years and you’re still there. The decision for us to leave was so traumatic. We both almost had a nervous breakdown.”

DON—”We had to sneak out in the middle of the night.”

KATHY—”We left at 3 o’clock in the morning.”

DON—”Yeah. At three o’clock in the morning packed what little things we had.”

KATHY—”our clothes. And, for six months after we left there, I wouldn’t let her go outside without me. I just knew that a car would hit her or something for punishment. And it takes so long to get over it.”

GA—”You were under that environment, for 10 years?”

DON—”She was 12. Me 10″

KATHY—”I was their first convert. I was with them before they even started the foundation charter. That’s the way most of the kids are. There is a lot of them that want to leave but you can’t—the hold is so great that you. And, you know when you’re 30 or 31 years old, and you have two kids, and you figure for 10 years—like one of the boys told a reporter one time, and it really hit us — his mother was just telling us the other night—the reporter said to him, “Well, Joey, have you ever stopped to think that maybe Tony and Sue are wrong.’ If I admit that I have been duped for six years, where do I go from here?’ I guess it’s a hard thing to admit that you’ve been fooled for that, usually the best 10-12 years of your life. Your early 20’s. So, I guess it’s hard especially if you’ve got a family. You can’t stick your thumb out when got two kids.”

DON—”I had money, you know and John Malone had money and all the other 20 of us that have left in the recent past.”

KATHY—”Had parents send them money or something.”

GA—”But the other poor kids are still (???)_____ .”

DON—”Yeah they’re still (???)________ .”

KATHY–“And, see the way its set up there is, even if your parents send you money, and they usually sent it in check form, you can’t cash them. Because nobody has any identification

DON–“You can’t cash them. And if you bring it to the office and ask them to endorse it for you or something, they will tell you to give it to God. You re not allowed to go anywhere. Everywhere you go, you have to take somebody with you. You’re not allowed to go anywhere by yourself.”

GA—”Now is this to reinforce not running away —tell on each other?”

KATHY—“Right. Right. So you have to go everywhere with somebody else. So say if I got a check—well, I had more freedom than most people, Susie trusted me—So I did get to come and go by myself. That’s how we got out of there. How we got truck. But, most kids, they would have to go to the office, and sign the check over and-let’s say it was a $50.00 check-they wouldn’t ask for more than $2 or $3.”

DON—”I was the only one that had a personal account. Every once in awhile someone would come to me and I would cash them through my account. I was the only one that had a personal account and I had that to pay my car payment. I never kept much in it.”

KATHY—”There’s a lot of parents who sent their kids money and the kids never kept it. They just turned it in.”

DON—”And, I was the only one who owned a car.”

GA—”Everything else was on the books.”

DON—”Yeah. And, even half way through the lease option on that they took it over.”

GA—”What do they refer to themselves as. I’m sure they don’t call themselves a cult. That has a bad connotation in itself.”

DON—”Pentecostal.”

KATHY—”Pentecostal—Holiness.”

DON—”Yeah, Pentecostal—Holiness. But non-denominational. ”

GA–“But, they do refer to themselves as the group, or membership, or brothers; is it these terms they use?'”

KATHY — “We just found out—they told everybody that there’s a board of directors, there is a charter drawn up, everything. And, if something happens to Tony and Sue, there are suppose to be 12 members that will take over. There’s no such thing. We found out from Sam, that the Tony and Susan Alamo Christian Foundation was Tony, Sue and myself. There is no Tony and Susan—she tells all the kids, that if anything happens to Tony and I, this will all be divided among you. You’re led to believe that you own a part of that. They (the kids) don’t own any of it.”

DON—”The standard stipulation—we’re organizing because we are going to evangelize and take care the poor and the sick and widows and all. But, there’s one stipulation there that says that Tony and Sue or the officers of this organization are not allowed to use any of the assets.”

KATHY—”They’re not suppose to take any of the monies.”

GA—”Well, this is true when any organization gets exempt status.”

KATHY—”Well, how can they do that? How can they take the monies and stuff when it says in the charter they’re not allowed to live off of it? Not allowed to buy clothes or their dwelling—-”

GA—”Well, that’s what I’m here for.”

KATHY—”What blew my mind, when I found out — their goose is cooked. They definitely live off of it. Course they tell everybody that they don’t. They say that Tony has his own private business adventures—that’s what they tell the people—not the foundation kids cause they know. But, she tells all the outsiders that Tony’s a whiz at a business. That he is a multimillionaire in his own right. He’s the worse business man I’ve ever seen in’ my life.’ He doesn’t know how to write a check. (DON) had to teach him how to write a check. Tony never went past fourth grade and Susie only went to sixth or seventh.”

GA — “They’ve got to be smart otherwise.”

KATHY — “They’re con artists. They know the con end of it.”

DON — “They have an instinctive knowledge of mass psychology.”

KATHY — “They sure cover their own tracks.”

DON — (all three talking and not too understandable)

DON — “Yeah. There’s no sex there. No promiscuity.”

KATHY — “That’s one thing that was so attractive — during the 60 ‘s was when all that sex revolution — and coming out of high school and thinking you nave to live up to that, the burden. And, that’s why a-lot of the kids went. That’s why I went, I thought is just great. I can be a puritan and not be looked down upon and escape. And, that’s one thing about that place that is above board. We never dated, held hands or any¬thing before we got married. You don’t even know them and all of a sudden you’re married.”

DON — “Yeah. Cause when we met — hey, who are you?”

KATHY — “If you want to talk after church services, you’re allowed to go sit down and talk but you have to have a third party, a chaperon.

DON — “We’re blowing these guys minds. Look at then.”

KATHY — “That’s why most of the marriages in there are so unhappy. Because, Susie has a real hatred for women and so does Tony. Tony hates ’em.”

DON— “They’re all houses (picks or pets).”

KATHY — “And, within a month most are marriages are completely destroyed. Susie goes after one of the two. Whoever is the strongest of the two, she goes after to mentally destroy them in front of their partner or whatever.”

GA — “Now, is this more for dominance or what.”

DON — “Yeah, to keep them in control. The way they keep their ranks tight, is first of all breakdown any kind of allegiance to anything but themselves, family unit or any other unit, and become any enemy syndrome-like Hitler-they’re after us. That’s the way the ranks.”

KATHY — “They bate the married couples to where they don’t trust each other. They’re always fighting each other. See, there’s no strength there.”

DON — “That’s the common denominator of every cult . ” GA — “But, they do encourage the marriages?”

DON—”They didn’t at first, but they did towards the end cause all the guys started leaving. They’d meet girls on the outside and they’d take off with them. Susie started talking about how we were getting to marrying age and we should raise— for awhile that scripture that Paul said it is better to marry than to burn—before that the favorite scripture was that everybody should abstain. It was considered a weakness to marry.”

GA—”But they were, loosing them?”

KATHY—”Yeah. They were loosing them. My gosh. I think everybody in the foundation got married within three years time. One time there was eleven weddings in a month. And, a lot of the kids when they get married, they send the husband to Bakersfield and they hustle them around on their honeymoon night. They don’t have honeymoons. We got married, got home at three o’clock and had to be back at six. It was weird. And, immediately she’ll start prying into your personal life and she’ll start telling the girl the faults of the boy. And there’s several brothers there that just knock the tar out of their wives, just beat them to a pulp. And, she encourages it, she tells them—I don’t blame you, I know what you’re going through, but whatever you do just don’t let the other kids know about it. She’s got a real sick thing. She would do anything. As a matter of fact, I was the only female on the whole place that she trusted, and probably only because I was the only one there from the beginning. It shocked her to the core that we left.”

DON—”It was the momentous happening in history of the foundation. The deaths were dwarfed next to our departure.”

KATHY—”Tony used to take pills. And, they know I know all that stuff. They know I know everything. I think, it really, really freaked them.”

DON—”I think they’re going to disappear into the sunset before this legation comes to court. You might not get anywhere.”

KATHY—”I really think Susie really thinks that her past is going to be made public— The only thing that makes me wonder is that Susie has to have that (???)_______ She’s deathly afraid to go on a boat and how is she going to get out of the country? She is deathly afraid to live anywhere but the United States and it’s a Federal Court thing, so she’d have to leave the United States.”

GA—“Yeah. So it’s Canada or Mexico.”

KATHY — “She’d go to Mexico. Because, she was going to enter Mexico one time with that ladies (???).

GA — “Well, I read somewhere that Tony is considered blind, is that right?”

KATHY — “Yeah. He’s got glaucoma. He’s considered legally blind. He can see with his glasses he wears. But, it’s like looking through a pin hole. He’s legally blind.

DON — “But when, (DON) _ met them he was living off his blind aid in the streets of Hollywood.”

KATHY — “I supported them for the first year. I worked and supported them. There was nothing going on then. They deny it now. They say it’s just not so. You ought to talk to their daughter. You think we’re (???) and stuff, you ought to talk to their daughter.”

GA — “Do you think this Lou Claude and John Malone would talk to me?”

DON—”Yes.”

KATHY—”Yes. Definitely. They have a lawsuit going now against the foundation. They have a $40 million—they just filed one with the (???) in California. The charter was originally California Branch and then they carried over to Arkansas so we filed against Arkansas and they filed against California.”

DON—”With Morintz, Paul Morintz-, the one that closed down Cinema ???. The one with the rattlesnake in the mail box thing.”

KATHY—”And, their lawsuit is a $40 million lawsuit. So, we figure, from both ends, maybe we can—”

DON—”Get some people out. Cause we don’t want the money. Even if we got the money, it would probably be put in escrow for them—-”

KATHY—”In a trust fund for them. Cause it’s their money. They’re the ones who worked for it. The thing is—-”

DON—”I’ll take my quarter back.”

KATHY—”I think they’re going to split. I really do.”

GA—”Well, do you have the phone numbers for John—-”

KATHY—”We don’t have Lou Claude’s, we’ve got John Malone’s and Richard Hydell’s. John Malone would know how to get in touch with Richard-not Richard—Lou Claude, They’re real close friends.”

GA—”Well, your attorney, Mr. Garner, told me about Richard Hydell.”

DON—”He’s another __(???)__There’s all three of us.

KATHY—”No. Lou Claude would definitely.”

DON—”And, there are many others, Ken Okel—”

KATHY—”We got Lou Claude’s old number—that wouldn’t be the same. Maybe, if you called they would have the new—•”

DON–“Yeah you can call (???) .”

KATHY—”This is his old number; this is before he got married. I know they’ve moved but they might have —give you the new number. 209-578-4180.

GA—”That’s California, right?”

KATHY—”Yeah. I think it was up around Sacramento, Modesto or somewhere.”

DON—”If that doesn’t work, Malone (???) . ”

KATHY—”GA, I can’t —”

DON—”It’s probably under ‘John'”

KATHY—”That’s right it is under ‘J’. “He gets so mad at me cause I can’t remember people’s last names. OK John Malone. 1919 Manticello Ave., Modesto, California. 95350 And, the number is 209-522-2831. Which was the other one we were looking for? Oh, Richard.”

GA— “Richard Hydell?”

DON— “Yeah.”

GA — “Mr. Garner gave that to me.”

DON — “Think he would want John Winkel?”

KATHY — “I wouldn’t crust John Winkel. John Windel’s libel to tell Tony and Sue that we’re doing it. He’s a very — he left too — but he’s — they say he’s really trippy. There are a few that have left and have gone back.”

DON — “Most people chat have left, end up in funny farms. She and I were fortunate.”

GA — “Were there ever any outside hired hands?”

DON — “Yeah. They’d hire outside people like Doris — I can’t remember his last name. He was an accountant that came in, and — ”

GA— “And, who was he?”

DON — “I can’t remember his last name but he was the one set up buying into the cement to get Jeanie out of the tax liability.”

KATHY — “He’s an accountant. He’s from Nashville. Oh, I can’t remember his last name. John Malone would probably know. Would John know his last name?”

DON — “No. John never met him I don’t think.” GA — “Now, he was never really a member?”

DON — “No. But he lived in the — right. He was just used, like they would hire a cook to cook at the restaurant and they’d hire an engineer to do something — ”

GA — “Do you think he would have much — ”

DON — “Doris would, yeah, he would. He might still be in there.”

KATHY — “We don’t know if he’s gone or not. But, I don’t know his last name. I don’t know how we could find that out.”

DON — “You could find out because he had the Sargent Pepper’s Clothing.”

GA — “Sargent Pepper’s?”

KATHY — “Yeah. Sargent Pepper’s — like a Levis and shirts — ”

DON — “Yeah. A clothing in Nashville and it went under. He had that. Ling Petrey — have you ever talked to Ling Petrey? ”

KATHY — “She wouldn’t knew anything about the business though.”

DON — “Yeah, Right, she wouldn’t know anything about the business. But, she’s been in the newspaper. ”

KATHY — “She left six years ago.”

GA — “What, I guess at this point, I need more than anything is about the book and records and how they’re taking money and going in the books and spending it on themselves,”

KATHY — “Now, the Hanks, they were choir directors.”

DON — “They don’t know anything about the books though.”

KATHY — “No. But, Don Hanks was with Susie a lot when she went on her spending things. who Else?”

DON — “As far as the books,

KATHY — “They were very secretive —- ”

GA — “But, now John Malone would know where Lou Claude is?”

KATHY — “Yeah. They’re in touch all the time. Cause Lou Claude just got married. Where did he move to, honey, Sacramento? He went somewhere. But, they’re in touch all the time.”

GA — “And, Richard Hydell is moving to Tulsa in September? ”

KATHY — “They’re suppose to. He’s supposed to be saving his money. He better. Cause he’s in this law suit with us and they were gonna move down and live here until the litigation was over and then, I think it will probably be California, but they figured it would be better if we were all together and they were close by. I hope so.”

DON — “I just can’t think.. There’s so much that I know” about the program. But I just can’t..”

KATHY — “But, you know Jordan Wake would know a lot about the book work. He’s an attorney in California — Hollywood or Beverly Hills — and him and Tony used to be real good friends, but they parted on a bad note. So, I don’t know, he might give you some information and he might not. I know they got in a big fight.”

RG — “But, ya’ll really don’t know a lot about now the books were kept? If they were skimming money off the top or anything. How that was done?”

KATHY — “The only thing that I know, is that I used to sit and hear ’em, cause they used to do it in Tony’s house every night — the financial end of it — and I heard bits and parts — and when . . . . ”

DON— “I heard every bit of it.”

KATHY — “Well, toward the end though. But, toward the income tax….”

DON — “And as far as any clear cut skimming or anything, I can’t put my finger on it and I don’t think Richard would be able to. Richard outside of the fact, had his account and would buy from Tony off his account — that’s shady at least. And, Lou Claude, who actually put the books together (lost conversation due to tape turn over) …that comes in and I’d take an accounting, I know what you’re talking about and, yes they would do that.”

GA — “So Tony would take money for himself — then its either got to show up on the books or they’ve got to alter it. And, this is..”

DON — “Yeah. They (or Lou ??) was altering it the year round, I know Like, for example, $145,000.00 for lunches would assimilate — would compensate for what disappeared here or disappeared there. I know there was lot of that and it was wittingly done. But, I can’t remember the specifics.”

RG — ” Kinda, what you’re saying on -he tax returns-to make up what Tony and Sue took out-they, would put deductions on their return for stuff they never spent money for? .”

KATHY—“Right. Right.”

DON — “right — they would just make up numbers out of the blue.”

KATHY — “Larry would come in and say, ‘Tony I’ve got $8,000.00 worth here income that we can’t show where it went.’ And, Tony would say — ah, go say you bought shoes for everybody or something. It would just be a blanket statement like that. Or, another thing was that, I remember a couple of years before we left, Tony and Sue stopped taking money out of the register because they ran into that problem. And, that was when Tony started taking money out of the envelopes at home. He would just open them up and he would write on the envelope how much he took. But, he never told the kids where it went. They never asked. ”

GA — “These envelopes would be the money from the businesses?”

KATHY — “Right. They would be what they called the drops. And, there would be the date on ’em and where they were from and you’d get them twice a day. Then the waitresses all their tips were turned in and Susie spent — used a lot of that. They would average about $1,000.00 tip money. And, she’d spent that. See that’s was never, ever put on the income tax.”

GA — “Well, the monies brought in by the peoples working out would probably be an excellent source of places where they could take cash.”

KATHY — “Right. Another thing — there were a lot of instances where the kids — the brothers working on like bid jobs — they would get paid by cash. So they’d just turn in the cash.”

GA — “So, that could be a possible source of money for their support.”

KATHY — “And, there were a lot of kids that would get money. One year a whole lot of kids got back—.”

DON — “Many times I cashed my quarterly check and put $6,000.00 in the plate.”

KATHY — “And, I used to give Susie cash on the collections.”

GA — “Did you go to the bank somewhere and cash it?”

DON — “NO. Actually, maybe I did that for the first 2 ½ to 3 years cause I wanted my donations to be anonymous. So, I’d go down to a bank and cash those distribution checks and then just put it in the plate when it went around.”

KATHY — “And, since we’ve been married, I’ve done it too. I’d go cash the check and then give Susie the cash. See, she didn’t want to tell him that I was giving it to her because she wanted to spend it and she didn’t have any idea that she couldn’t cash a check. So, I would cash it for her and give it to her. She denies now, that we ever gave her any money. I would be hard for us to prove because we gave it to her cash. There was ways,—I don’t know how else.”

DON—”It was a mystery to me as to how they worked out except for the year end. As to how they worked out on a day to day basis—the discrepancies in the drops.”

GA—”Do you have any—or could you make a guess as to what they’re spending in a years time on themselves–or a month. Are you talking about thousands and thousands of dollars?”

KATHY — “Oh, yeah. Susie shopped in same expensive shops. She goes to Dallas and I. Mangams and all exclusive stores.”

DON—”Rodeo Blvd. in Beverly Hills.”

KATHY—”I shopped for her on Rodeo Drive in Beverly Hills. I mean, it was nothing to spend $800.00 to $1,200.00 on an outfit. And, she may wear it once or something—twice a year.”

DON—”And, Tony just got rocks all over his hands. Susie too,”

KATHY—”Well, we would go malls in Fort Smith when she was bored—-sometimes 2 or 3 times a week—and we’d never leave there before she’d spend $300 or $400.00 on just perfume or just anything. She was like that—she was like a spend thrift.”

GA—”So the items, other than the diamonds and gold they’re accumulating, are consumable items–Clothes?”

DON—”Yeah.”

KATHY—”Yeah, clothes.”

RG—”If he bought a big suit or something and decided to quit wearing it, would he put it in the store or something and try to sell it?”

DON—”Well, yeah, that was the premise, he would always say, whenever the accusation was made—that he was taking clothes—that he was buying clothes for the store in Nashville. And, everything that was bought at the marts in California was sent to his house so he could inspect it and they were always bought in his size—he’d pick out what he wanted and then send the rest to the store.”

KATHY—”And, Susie would do the same thing.”

DON—”He’d tramp through the mud in (???) boots.”

KATHY—”That’s what Susie did too and Richard used to do all the buying and she would tell Richard what size and that. And, they would send it in her size and she’d tell everybody in the (???) and that’s what she told the IRS last time that it was all sent to the store. And, I unpacked all that stuff and I don’t think—we sent one outfit—that Richard sent—it was a gold Lamay outfit —to the store, but the rest of it Susie kept.”

DON—”She get a wholesale mink coat that Richard sent before he left—for 15 G’s.”

KATHY—”15 thousand. Was it 15 or 25?”

DON—”That was at wholesale. It was a white..”

KATHY-“It was a white mink. The most expensive one and the best one..”

DON—”—-(???) got it specially made for Susan along the (???) . ”

KATHY— And, they asked her in the deposition if she had a fur coat—not only does she have that but, she’s got three fur coats— that one and one 3/4 length coat and one a waist jacket—and they asked in the deposition, and she said she’s never owned a for in her life. And, Richard talked to the furrier and he remembered it because Susie had her own personal label made up , it said made ‘exclusively for Susan Alamo , put it into the coat , and he remembers that—and for the court thing he’s giving Richard a receipt to prove her a liar. It was just like the sky was the limit; they would go out and buy three, four and five thousand dollar pinkie rings.”

DON—”Yeah. And, said it was advertising for the store. ‘We rub elbows with the stars so much, that we might as well.’ And, they would never have any of that stuff in the store.. They had some turquoise.”

KATHY—”Well, Garner asked in his last deposition—Tony had on a big ring with a big ‘A’ and the ‘A’ was made out of diamonds—Garner asked Tony, says Tony you know about that ring and Tony said ‘I just wear it for promotion. This is for to get orders off of which is the (???) ”

GA—”Golly, they have answers for everything.”

DON—”Oh, yeah. And, the people in the organization do but, if you ever ask them a question, if you want to question them on the side—and you ask them a question that they’re not prepared for—they just crumble.. It’s happened before.”

KATHY—”When you’ve been programmed so long to say just certain things, and then when you get a line of questions away from that program—you don’t know how to handle it. But, Garner asked him, ‘Tony, what do you do with that ring, do you put it in the store at night or whatever.’ And, Tony said, ‘Oh, no, I don’t put it in the store As a matter of fact, someone told us that there’s a lot of thievery going on there in Nashville. For, protection I wear it.'”

DON–“Richard Hydell and Tony were as close as two people could get for a while there. He used to really confide in Richard. He (Tony) said, ‘Richard one day you’ll be wearing ice like this.’ ”

KATHY—”And, you feel like a crud. Like, Susie would buy all these expensive clothes and after she wore them a few times, she’d give them to me. Well, she’s sixty, and I was only 20, a 20 year old and a 60 year old woman do not wear the same style anyway—plus I didn’t want to be walking around in $300.00 _(???)______ pants and the other girls were running around in a pair of Levis they’d had for six years.”

GA—”I didn’t realize she was that old.”

KATHY—”She’s older than she claims to be.”

DON—”She’s probably 60 now.”

KATHY—”On her deposition they asked her how old she was and she was 20 going on 21.”

DON—”She couldn’t remember where she was born; she couldn’t remember what name she was born under. ”

KATHY—”She couldn’t remember her son’s name, where he was born. I know he was born in Ft, Smith. It’s so stupid because when you have a baby, they put on there how old the mother is—so it could be easily traced.”

GA—”Well, how old is Tony? Is he the same age?”

DON—”Tony is ten years younger than Susie. He’s the same age as Elvis.”

KATHY—”We’ve been gone two years. Tony’s about 50 now. Tony was 43 when we left. But, I think Susie is close to 65. But, she’d lied so much that.,”

GA—”I guess she believes her own lies.”

DON—”At one point, she was gonna go to Israel and I was the one designated to get her passport, And, I petitioned all kinds of bureaus of vital statistics in states all over the Union because she didn’t know where…”

KATHY—”She claimed she didn’t know where she was born.”

DON—”And, I never did find out.”

KATHY—”She was born in Joplin, Missouri. We never sent one to Missouri.”

DON—”Well, I petitioned Missouri.”

KATHY—”I mean Arkansas. She was born in Ft. Smith. That’s what her sister says.’

GA—”No birth certificate?”

DON—”No—I don’t think.’

GA—”So that’s one reason maybe they’re still in this country.”

DON—”Yeah. That could well be.”

KATHY—”That’s right how would she get out?”

GA—”You can get outside the border without a passport.”

KATHY—”Oh, you can?”

GA—”Yeah. But, you don’t want to. Oh, you can go to places with a voter’s registration card—you can go to the Bahamas, the Virgin Islands, any of those islands there.”

KATHY—”She’d never go anyplace unless she could drive. She’d have to drive to it. She’s a paranoid about boats or anything. Scared to death of water.”

(DON and GA having ‘joint’ conversation not understandable)

GA—”Well, this is all very fascinating and I could sit here for hours and listen to it. I don’t want to take up much of your time, bet we might kinda break it off at some point and with your permission, if there are question we have, I would like to call you maybe, If that would be alright.”

KATHY—”OK. Yeah.

GA—”And, it could be that later on, we would need much more information. More detailed specific information about something or a certain item.. .”

KATHY—See, that’s another thing-like with their pay. Like there’s a thing in the foundation that even if the Labor Board is crying to get them to pay the kids-you know overtime, if they work overtime—you’re only suppose to donate a certain amount of hours to a charitable and after that you’re suppose to get paid or something, I’m not sure— but they already have it all worked out than Tony says he’ll give them the check, and its already an understanding between Tony and the members, that they’ll donate the check. So it’s just a matter of paperwork.”

GA—”That is controlled?”

KATHY—”And, nobody—the only good thing about that is that if someone did leave. But, see—if they wanted to leave, they’d have a check. But, you never have a check long enough, on your person, because when they hand it to you; they stand and wait for you to sign it over. There’s no such thing as, OK I’ll sign and give it to you later. They stand right there and wait for you to sign it.”

DON—”I can’t be specific. But, I know there were instances where, for example, we’d do a job for somebody and they’d write a check that Tony would allow them to write off as a donation type thing. When I say that, I hope Richard can substantiate it. I do remember, though, that sorta thing.”

KATHY—”Yeah. but, a lot of those people, like Gary Waller and stuff, they’d do that in the foundation. But, if you ever got them to the point where you were asking them specific questions, they would end up telling you the truth. Because, they’d get so tripped up. And, the kids are basically—when you’re in there you really want to tell the truth and you really want to do right. That’s how we got kicked out of North Hollywood because all of us told the truth on the stand and we were found guilty on sanitation. And, we were guilty. But, Sue and Tony had told us all what to say and once we got up there, the line of questioning was so different—we got so flustered—and the thing that kept running through your head was, ‘I’m a Christian I’ve got to tell the truth.’ And, you’d tell the truth. And, that’s what got us thrown out of Hollywood. That’s when Susie got really mad. And, ever since then she will send people out of the state before she’ll let them take the stand. Cause she knows that if a smart lawyer or anybody ever gets ahold of ’em, they can dig it out of them. Cause, basically, the kids want to tell the truth, except of few of them like Ed Megler, LaRoache. And, they’re hard, they’re shrewd.”

GA–“After your court action, what do you think future holds for you. What are they aftercare they after a goal? Or, just day by day .”

DON—”No. they have their empire.”

GA—”Don’t think they might be trying to accumulate a certain amount and cut out or something?”

DON—”Yeah. Now, that this legation is underway that’s what I suspect.”

KATHY—”I do.”

GA—”But, prior to that there was not a goal!”

KATHY—”See, it’s not so much the money with then. They thrive on power they need that as bad as they need the money. I don’t really think—in fact, they left California but they never left control of it. They still control it by phone. Susie got to the point—well, just since the lawsuit, she’s afraid of that too—but she was also tired of the kids. And, she talks about them like dirt now. But, it’s the power they need –their ego. And, if Susie died, Tony would hold on to that place. Because Tony is an ego maniac. And, that place would sour over—I mean, that is the only thing—that would turn into a Jim Jones town over night once Susie left. Susie as far as promiscuity holds everything in check. But, Tony is a sicko anyway, but he hates women and he’s got some kinda hang-up about that anyway -from his childhood He’d be a nut.I’ve always been afraid of him.”

GA—”Do they have any respect for any authority?”

DON—”No.”

KATHY—”No. Neither do the kids. You hate the police. You have no respect for nothing in there.”

DON—”There’s a sworn affidavit submitted in the course of this deposition, from John Malone about that. Instructions to beat-up and kill. I don’t know if the work kill the marshal first—-judges.”

KATHY—”And right on down to the attorney who represented the parents, who was pregnant at the time.”

DON—”No. there’s no respect.”

GA—”So I should not turn my back either?”

BALANCE OF TAPE NOT TRANSCRIBED DUE TO REPETITION